Bounced
Bounced
Owning Your Niche and Podcast Packaging with Dan Misener, Valentina Passos Gastaldo and Thomas West
With millions of podcasts ready to listen to, it can feel daunting to begin your journey as a new creator. How can you stand out from the crowd? This episode we talk to Dan Misener, the Broadcaster in Residence at RTA's Allan Slaight Radio Institute to learn about podcast packaging, how podcasters can find their niche and reach their target audience. From the epic journey of the Canadian curling team, to the very different experiences of immigrant sisters, to dismantling toxic masculinity in Star Wars, we’ve got a wide range of projects for you to listen to and some really talented students to meet along the way.
Produced by the RTA School of Media at X University
To read the complete show notes click here
Visit our website to view the transcription or access hyperlinks in this description: https://bounced.buzzsprout.com/
Timestamps
3:00 -13:34 Why finding a niche is important and how to find one
13:35-15:05 Not Two Guys Talking About Star Wars Feature
15:06-18:32 Making an "ear-catching" podcast
18:33-26:50 On the Button Feature
26:51-34:43 Thomas West Interview: Behind On the Button
34:44-36:37 What is podcasting great at?
36:38-51:04 The Immigrant Feature
51:05-58:18 Valentina Interview: Behind The Immigrant
Featured Projects
Not Two Guys Talking About Star Wars - Haylee Thompson (RTA 996 W2021)
You’ve heard it a million times before. “Rey isn’t a Skywalker,” “Star Wars was ruined by feminists,” “You probably pretend to like Star Wars to get guys.” The usual, two guys talking about Star Wars content. This is NOT that kind of podcast. Join host, self proclaimed Star Wars superfan and feminist Haylee Thompson as she explores the Star Wars universe through the female gaze including its characters, storylines and various new projects. In this feature project we’ll listen to possibly one of the best podcast openings EVER.
On the Button - Thomas West (RTA 996 W2021)
Join Thomas West as he recounts the best moments in Canadian Curling history through spectacular sound design, live game audio, and interviews with athletes. In this feature Thomas speaks with Olympians Ryan Harnden and Brad Jacobs and tells the story of the 2013 Roar of the Rings Tournament and their journey to the 2014 Sochi Olympics.
The Immigrant - Valentina Passos Gastaldo (RTA 996 W2021)
What does it actually mean to be an immigrant in Canada? The immigrant is a podcast that sheds a light on real and unique Canadian immigrants’ stories. Each episode features vulnerable conversations with immigrants that share the good, the bad, and everything in between of what it means to be an immigrant in this country. In this feature Valentina interviews her sister and discusses with her their journeys to Canada and how they adapted to their new homes.
Credits
Podcast Producer and Host: Sam McNulty
Project Supervisor and Guest Host: Lori Beckstead
Artwork: Yvette Sin
Sound Design (Trailer, Opening and Sweepers): Anita Pogorzelska
Opening and Closing Music: PHAS3.EXE by Drake Sanderson
Show Notes and Transcription: Yixin (Cherry) Yang
Dan Misener 0:00
I think a huge part of this has to do with the enormous choice that listeners have. Depending on who you listen to, and how you count, there's anywhere between 2 million and 4 million podcasts series as of 2021. And there are 10s of millions of episodes out there. And so listeners have never had more choice. They can spend their time listening to nearly anything that they want to. And given that huge amount of choice, I think the question for creators becomes, how do I cut through the clutter? How do I stand out from the crowd? How do I make something that is really going to capture people's time and attention and earn their time and attention?
Samantha McNulty 0:59
That's Dan Meisner. He's been the broadcaster in residence at RTA for the past two years and is the director of audience development at Pacific Content, a company that works with brands to make original podcasts. This episode we're talking about something Dan knows a lot about. We're covering podcast packaging, and like the title suggests, finding your niche and using these aspects of the medium to your advantage. As Dan was saying, there's a podcast for everything, from web development, to dating shows, to friends talking about the latest in hurling, if you've had an idea for a series rolling around in your brain, chances are there's already a show just like it. And that's not a bad thing. The beauty of podcasting lies in its ability to cater to and give voice to really unique and sometimes small communities. I'm Sam McNulty. And this episode, we're featuring the work of a few students who have recognized what they uniquely offer and have made a project relevant to their own capabilities and experiences. From the epic journey of the Canadian curling team to very different experiences of immigrant sisters, to dismantling toxic masculinity in Star Wars, we've got a wide range of projects for you to listen to, and some really talented students to meet along the way.
Anita Pogorzelska (Opening) 2:44
You're listening to an RTA School of Media student showcase podcast.
Samantha McNulty 3:00
So let's start off with one of the questions we came here to answer. Why is finding your niche so important in podcasting?
Dan Misener 3:11
If you think about the relationship between a podcast creator and a listener, it's a transaction. You are asking listeners for perhaps the most precious resource that they have, which is their time and their attention. Your listeners had better get something in return for that time and attention that they've chosen to give to you. And so, one really great way to have a compelling pitch to the listener, one really great way to make a solid promise to the listener, is to start by asking, "What can I offer them that nobody else can offer them? What is the show that I can make that nobody else could make? Even if they really wanted to? What's, you know, proprietary". And again, it could be a point of view, it could be access to guests, it could be a personal story that you're the only person on the planet who's qualified to tell. I don't know what that is. But I think at the end of the day, this is all about cutting through the clutter and making sure that your show has the best possible chance of standing out from the crowd.
Samantha McNulty 4:27
How can we really find a niche? Can you walk us through some approaches? I know you suggested that sometimes it's the guests that you have, something that you're obsessed with...
Dan Misener 4:35
Yeah.
Samantha McNulty 4:36
What are some approaches that people can take?
Dan Misener 4:39
So I'm a huge advocate for doing your research ahead of time. And very, very often somebody will come to me and say I want to make a show about movies, or I want to make a show about cooking, or I want to make a show about my favorite kinds of music, and I think before you start to design your show, and before you start to plan out your guests and your episodes and your topics and all of that, it really makes a lot of sense to survey the landscape and start by listening. Look for other shows that are doing similar things to you. Right? What's already out there? How are the kinds of listeners that you want to reach already being served by other shows? You know? By doing that sort of survey of the landscape, by understanding what shows other people and other networks are already making, that can help you identify your unique take, or your unique format, or your unique promise to a listener. And so my biggest and maybe strongest recommendation is, don't make a show that already exists. Don't do your version of somebody else's existing show. The only way you can avoid duplicating other people's work or creating a show that offers the same thing that lots of other shows offer is by listening first.
Samantha McNulty 6:19
What are other common mistakes that you notice within that development process?
Dan Misener 6:24
So I think as audio producers, and as fans of podcasting and audio as a medium, we tend to focus almost exclusively on the sound of our shows. Did we get a good sounding recording from Skype or Zencaster or any other tool? Is the music at the right level? Are we using sound effects? What microphone should we buy? We spend so much time thinking about the audio quality of our shows and the mixing and the editing. And we're audio people and we tend to focus on audio, that makes all kinds of sense. Like, totally get it. One of the things that I find is so often overlooked, is everything that isn't the audio file. And so the way that I tend to talk about this is in terms of product packaging. If you make a podcast series, yes, it's a collection of audio files. But long before anybody spends a single second listening to your show, they will have already formed an impression of it based on things that they consume with their eyes.
So I'm thinking here about the visual identity of your show, and how that appears inside podcast apps, how that appears in Google search results, and how it appears in lots of different places on social during a promoted post. So what does the artwork for your show look like? And what is that trying to convey? In terms of quality, in terms of tone, in terms of format? What are the visuals that are associated with your show? What are they telling the listener? And then I think about some of the text or the copy elements. What is the name of your show? What are the titles of your episodes? What are the descriptions of the episodes, right? All of this text that appears inside podcast apps, and then we can think about things that most people don't necessarily think of as product packaging elements, but are really important things, like how often do your new episodes come out? Do you release new episodes every single week? Do you put an episode out every single month? Do you release six episodes and then take a break for five months? So your release cadence is a big part of that. And the actual duration of your episodes, right? Are you making 10 minute episodes? Are you making 40 minute episodes? Or are you Dan Carlin and making four hour episodes of hardcore history?
And so I don't necessarily want to call this a mistake. But I think that those product packaging elements, the artwork, the copy, the metadata, the duration, the release cadence, all of those things are going to inform somebody's impression of your show, long before they've ever heard a single second of it. And so what I want for all podcast creators is for the packaging of their show, all of these elements that are kind of on the outside, to be a really good, accurate and enticing reflection of what's on the inside. Because whether we like it or not, people tend to consume podcasts with their eyes before they ever consume podcasts with their ears. People don't look at the title in isolation. They don't look at the artwork in isolation. They don't look at the category in Apple podcasts in isolation. They don't look at the duration of an episode in isolation. They look at all of these things together. And then they make a decision to do the thing that every podcaster wants them to do, which is hit the play button.
Samantha McNulty 10:21
When it comes to podcast packaging and finding your niche, it's important to note that these are not unrelated elements or processes from one another. Like Dan was saying all of this work leads up to your audience's decision to actually listen. Finding your niche isn't about fitting into a mold to reach your target audience, but instead, it's a way to take up space and standout in your category. So far, we've discussed artwork, descriptions, release cadence, and other aspects of your podcast. But there are a few other ways to use your niche to package your work and attract listeners. In a similar way that we use our artwork to visually market our work, we can use the content inside of our episodes to signal to our audience and differentiate ourselves from other podcasts in the same category.
Dan Misener 11:08
In my day job, I work in a company called Pacific Content and we work with brands to make original podcasts. And a little while ago, we started working with an automotive manufacturer, a company called Ford Motor Company, and they were launching a show all about the rebirth of the Ford Bronco, which is a vehicle that was born in the 1960s and then had this very interesting history, and then in the 1990s, they completely stopped manufacturing it and now it's back. And so they wanted to tell the story of the birth and death and rebirth of the Ford Bronco. And to do that, we started by listening to a bunch of automotive podcasts, and what we found was that an awful lot of those shows, were two guys in a garage talking about gearhead type stuff. It was kind of stereotypical motorhead, gearhead, you know, garage-
Samantha McNulty 12:08
Dude-bro talk.
Dan Misener 12:09
Yeah! And so we looked at that, and we said, "how are we going to make a show that appeals to automotive enthusiasts, but it's going to stand out from the crowd and not be yet another two dudes in a garage talking about cars kind of show?" And so what we ended up doing is counter programming, by putting together an eight part documentary series, which is effectively an audio roadtrip, where Sonari Glinton, who's the host of the show, goes on this huge sort of cross country journey to understand why did Ford kill the bronco? Why did they decide to bring it back, and they meet a whole bunch of people through archival materials and some of the principals who are still around. And it's almost the opposite of two dudes in a garage. It's one person on a mission to uncover a mystery of why this company killed and then brought back the vehicle. And it sounds like a documentary because it is a documentary. And so, you know, I think that idea of counter programming, it can be very, very effective, especially when what you're trying to do is cut through the clutter and offer something that is d distinct and is highly differentiated, because there's no shortage of two dudes in a garage podcasts. And I'm not sure the world needs, you know, yet another one.
Samantha McNulty 13:34
This method of counter programming the content of your podcast isn't just a technique used by professional podcasting companies. It's also being used by students and newcomers to the medium. Take for example, this fantastic opening by Haylee Thompson for her podcast, Not Two Guys Talking A bout Star Wars.
Haylee Thompson 13:53
This is a Star Wars podcast.
Male Fan 1 13:55
Yeah, the sequels aren't canon.
Male Fan 2 13:57
Rey is such a Mary-Sue.
Male Fan 1 13:58
The Last Jedi is literally--
Male Fan 2 14:00
It's not gatekeeping, you're just not a real fan.
Male Fan 1 14:02
Yeah. Okay SJW.
Male Fan 2 14:04
In my opinion...
Male Fan 1 14:05
Personally, I think...
Male Fan 2 14:06
Well to play devil's advocate....
Haylee Thompson 14:08
No, no, no, no. This is Not Two Guys Talking About Star Wars hosted by Haylee Thompson.
Samantha McNulty 14:19
I love this opening clip because it tells us exactly what this project is about. Who is it for and the tone of our series and how her podcast is different from others in the space. She even did something really clever with her opening in that she actually went to the comment section of a video about her favorite fandom, Star Wars, and used misogynistic quotes that were said by other male fans. I thought this was so powerful because in the way that these comments are used to ward off women and non cis men from being a part of fandoms, Haylee uses these quotes to ward off unwelcome listeners and signal to the ones that she wants that this is a safe space for them, and all of this happened within the first minute of her podcast.
Dan Misener 15:06
One of the things I think an awful lot about is what I call first minute retention, or first minute effectiveness. And over the past couple of years, listening, apps like Apple Podcasts and Spotify have started to give individual creators much more information about how listeners interact with their shows, and how long they're listening and where they're dropping off. And one of the things that we see time and time again, is that the sharpest drop off in listeners within an episode usually happens within the first 30, 60, 90 seconds, right? Everybody, or nearly everyone starts podcasts by hitting play, and starting at the very beginning, minutes, zero seconds zero. And so if they're gonna bail, they're probably going to bail within the first minute or so. And so, you know, in a linear medium, like, you know, audio storytelling, I think that first minute, and really articulating what the benefit of the show is, what the tone of the show is, why you should keep listening, it's so, so important. Because we know that if we've got you for the first 60 or 90 seconds, if you've made it that far, odds are you're going to stick around for all or most of the episode. How do we get people to (as early on in the episode as we can) make the decision that they should stick with this episode, right? What are we going to do? What is the question that we're going to raise? What is the story that we're going to tease? What is the storyline that we're going to start and leave on a cliffhanger that's going to keep people and hold their attention throughout the entire episode. Not in a click-baity kind of way. I don't know if there's an audio equivalent of click-baity, but in a way that really plays to the strengths of audio as a medium, which is, you know, storytelling and emotion. And I think if you can nail that first minute effectiveness and really clearly sell the benefit of the show, not just what it is, but why someone should listen, then you're off to a great start.
Sweeper Speaker 1 17:17
You're listening,
Sweeper Speaker 2 17:18
You're listening to,
Sweeper Speaker 3 17:20
You're listening to Bounced.
Samantha McNulty 17:27
While listening to new podcasts or shows, I have a process of previewing the episode to decide whether or not I'm going to listen. And what I do is I start skipping through the episode to find something ear catching, not eye catching, but ear catching. Something that grabs my attention and makes me go, "Hey, I think I want to listen to this, I want to commit my time to this podcast". And a show that I find extremely ear catching is Thomas West's podcast, On the Button. When I first listened to this podcast, I really didn't know what to expect. I'm not a sports person. And more specifically, I wouldn't call myself a curling person, which is what Thomas's podcast is all about. The thing is Thomas did something that not a lot of interview based sports podcasts do, is that he tried to tell a really vivid and detailed story of the sport he was passionate about, and a game that was really pivotal for this Canadian curling team.
Thomas West 18:33
Okay, I want to get into the Roar of the Rings tournament before because this was a massive moment for you guys, I believe, as it was the moment where you guys were able to qualify for the Olympics.
Broadcaster 1 18:47
Zone down here. But you're here to get a Ryan Fry's throw because he knows Ryan Fry releases better than he does the other teams.
Curler 1 18:53
Clean!
Broadcaster 2 19:00
final stone looking for a couple here. The Harnden Brothers backing right off now.
Curler 1 19:08
clean, clean, clean
Broadcaster 2 19:10
he could use little inside roll if he's got it And it'll sit right there. That'll be enough. For the two.
Ryan Harndin 19:17
We've had a lot of success and we could get on a roll. And that was that was I think a big, big start for us was playing a team that we knew being able to beat many times in a row. So yeah, we played loose, we played confident, played aggressive. And we played extremely well throughout the event. So that was obviously I think a big boost for us is playing jeffer first game.
Broadcaster 2 19:44
The reigning Canadian champions. When you look at some of the other teams here with all that experience the likes of Stoughton and Howard and Koe, they got themselves into a lot of trouble with some of their strategy. They have it
Broadcaster 3 19:57
They have the strategy and they also have the hit game. You can't win this without drawing of course but they are one of the best teams maybe ever at the takeouts and not just simple takeouts, the run backs as well. They've given up the fewest points per game on average never gave up more than a deuce that's partly strategy
Ryan Harndin 20:14
Going back to that game, I kind of knew after the night then when Brad made that double that the game was over unless something drastically went wrong, so I think that's a shot that I'll never forget because I don't know why they ever left them that because at that point Brad was just making everything and that's in his wheelhouse
Curler 1 20:35
very precise though right?
Curler 2 20:37
What the hit?
Curler 1 20:37
No the draw to here also just leaving
Curler 2 20:40
I don't think he'll throw that double if we're here I think that's where we go, right here to better result in hit anyway because then he's got an a freebie one we go right here he's not strolling like unless we're right here he's not throwing this double he's taking this one right there a SWAT right here
Broadcaster 2 21:05
Do you think so to?
Broadcaster 1 21:08
interesting spot
Curler 2 21:10
Why would you throw the double when you're up one
Broadcaster 1 21:13
little deep.
Curler 1 21:14
you might before
Curler 2 21:15
yeah but we just don't want to be we just don't want to be on the T line.
Broadcaster 1 21:19
Most teams come or half around if you leave it open there's a simple double and if you come half around you might line up the raise double
Ryan Harndin 21:30
That's great. That's okay and you still have control the game but that was that was the shot that won the trials and I just remember celebrating and all the emotion coming out and at that point I knew we're going to Olympics but hopefully it's something drastically didn't go wrong.
Broadcaster 3 21:49
If they give up a single they'd still have the hammer coming home
Broadcaster 2 21:54
it was john Morris the gamble now
Curler 2 21:57
i didn't think you'd hit still
Brad Jacobs 22:02
yeah well it's because like Ryan said you know that was that sealed the deal right there and I remember that spot on that particular spot on the sheet had to be really careful because earlier in the game it was fifth end we were throwing just a lightweight hit down that spot and we ended up jamming it and kind of looking foolish
Broadcaster 1 22:27
Brad throws it as clean as anybody who has a lot of rotation which make it might make it run even straighter
Broadcaster 3 22:32
he's got great brushes you cannot overthrow it
Ryan Harndin 22:43
wow wow
Brad Jacobs 22:46
almost hot Rye
Broadcaster 2 22:50
Jenkins in his last and nothing from the brothers Harndin Oh, there is your get out of jail isn't that something
Ryan Harndin 23:04
wow just didn't pick that spot up.
Brad Jacobs 23:07
Just ran eh? threw perfect
and I remember thinking to myself I don't think I threw that particularly that bad i thought i through a pretty good and the weight was pretty close but it just ran really really straight so sometimes you got to miss shots earlier on to be able to make the ones that really count matter later in the game and that was a really good I'm almost thankful that we had missed that shot earlier because we I knew how to throw it down that spot come you know the time with that it really mattered so I remember letting it go and and just you couldn't be wide you could if anything you could be a little bit tight and a little bit soft and that's exactly how I threw it
Broadcaster 1 23:48
and straight spot here gotta be careful not to jam it
Broadcaster 2 23:50
final stone trying to make the double put a loss on it.
Brad Jacobs 23:55
Whoa, whoa.
Broadcaster 2 23:58
Calling line! And he's got it. There's that emotion. Curling's version of The Big Bang Theory that's
Ryan Harndin 24:15
It's just amazing. Because it's so hard to get to the Olympics in Canada, because it's so hard. You have such a deep field and just never know that if you're going to get back or not. So, yeah, it's just amazing feeling something I'll never forget
Broadcaster 1 24:32
the day or something bad could happen out with this beat
Broadcaster 2 24:36
Brad Jacobs from Sault Sainte Marie. They are the Canadian champions. They are now Olympians
Brad Jacobs 25:17
I remember just kind of thinking myself, like, I can't believe this. And it had it certainly hadn't sunk in. It was it felt like a really short time between when we had won the Brier and it was, and we were on the top of that podium and now you know, however many months later, we're on top of that podium and we're going to the Olympics. And it was Yeah, it's just what can I say man was special It's a dream come true. We wearing in the Maple Leaf represent, you know, the having the opportunity to represent your country and you know, doing it with these guys was just, it was, it was a really special moment and to be able to take you know, Tom Colterman, our coach, he had been coaching for so many years in the sport of curling, starting with his daughter, and Tom is a legend in his own right, you know, on the coaching side of things, he's been involved for many years and still is today, he coaches the University here in town, so to have Tom with us and, and Caleb, who has been a lifelong friend, especially of BJ's [Brad Jacobs] was was a dream come true.
Thomas West 26:22
With the momentum of the Roar of the Rings tournament on their side, team, Jacobs would go on to win the gold medal in Sochi, Russia, which would be Canada's third gold medal in a row at the Olympics. So they were able to continue the legacy of Canada at the Olympics, but in 2018, with the Americans winning, the gold medal won by Team Jacobs is the last time Canada has won a gold medal in curling at the Olympics.
Samantha McNulty 26:51
That was On the Button by Thomas West. Now, while I could talk forever about what I admire about this podcast, I think it's best if you hear from the person who actually created it. We've got Thomas with us to tell the story behind making this podcast and where the idea for it came from.
Thomas West 27:15
I have a couple of cousins who are famous curlers, they won the gold medal in Sochi, Russia. And they're like third cousins. And I'm related to Brad Jacobs, who was one of the people on the podcast. So that's kind of what got me into curling, and watching curling growing up and watching my cousins curl, that was always a really cool thing for me. So that's kind of the inspiration behind the podcast. And then when I got to this class, and we got to do the podcast, I was pretty happy that this is what we got to do. So the podcast actually turned out pretty much exactly how I envisioned it. The big thing in this podcast is I wanted to have a strong mix of talking in an interview, and having actual audio clips from from live or things that that happened live at one point, like the commentator calls and the sound of the arena in a curling rink. Because I think with curling you know, with hockey and stuff, you have the fans cheering and all that and you know, that has its own unique sound to it with you have a soccer game that has, you know, its own unique sound to it. And curling is no different. And you know, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like curling is, you know, seem to be the most exciting thing in the world. But it does have a very unique sound. And with the commentators talking and the way they talk, and the sound of the broom on the ice, and the curlers yelling, these are all things that I think are very unique to the sport. And for people like me who are really into curling, this is something that you know, would be very recognizable, and you could relate to very easily. So in the development of the podcast, I wanted to make sure that there was a lot of that emotion of the curling game and the atmosphere of a curling rink that was was captured. And then that combined with Brad and Ryan in the podcast actually talking. And then you hear them actually yelling in the curling game was a cool, cool dynamic that I want to have.
Samantha McNulty 29:35
So I want to talk about how you developed your podcast. You know, what research did you do in terms of seeing what other podcasts were out there that were kind of like it and how you differentiated yourself?
Thomas West 29:47
Well, I watched a lot of curling.
Samantha McNulty 29:50
That's a given.
Thomas West 29:52
First of all, yeah, I watched a ton of curling, and I found the moments that I wanted to get Capture. I don't think there was a ton out there that was particularly similar to this podcast. There's a lot of podcasts about curling. But I don't know how many really try and tell the same kind of story that I feel like was told in this podcast.
Samantha McNulty 30:19
So in other sports podcasts or other curling podcasts, I should say, were they more conversational podcasts? Or were they kind of documentarian like yours?
Thomas West 30:28
Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were totally conversational. There wasn't a lot of production clips where you're actually taking like, you know, atmosphere and actual, like curling calls from commentators and stuff like that most of it is talking about, I don't know how to put like, maybe like more nerdy curling stuff, talking more about, like Kevin Martin's podcast, who is he was a famous curler for Canada, his podcast is great. I really enjoyed that. It's called inside curling. And this is one that I, I, I listened to quite a bit, but it's more talking about curling the sport and current events and stuff like that. My podcast has nothing to do with current events. It has like shelf life, right, where people could listen to this podcast many years down the road. And it would be just as effective as you know, when they listened to it right when it came out, right? I'm telling a story. I'm not trying to keep people up on current events or things like that. It's about the story. And I'm just telling a cool story. It doesn't really matter, you know, when it happened.
Samantha McNulty 31:28
Something I want to get into is how did you get and how did you manage to get that game audio?
Thomas West 31:35
Yeah, I thought that that would be a difficult process. And I was a little worried because if I didn't get any of that game audio, this podcast would be looking a lot different. I basically just had to go ahead and email Curling Canada, and all the games are on their YouTube channel. And I said, Hey, can I use this these clips and, you know, curling is kind of a niche thing, right? So when I think when someone emails saying, "Hey, I'm going to do a podcast about curling", they're like, "yeah, sure, we'd love that". Right? It's not because it's small. It's just because there's not a ton of, you know, production around. There's lots of people who who love curling, but there's not, you know, a ton of stuff like this. So yeah, I just emailed Curling Canada, and they said, "Sure, you can use this clip, for sure". And that's how I got it. But I think curling is just like, right in that middle zone where there still lots of access to stuff. But it's not in and there's still lots of people as well that like it. And it's just in that that median zone where you have a really good opportunity and the resources at your disposal to tell a really good story.
Samantha McNulty 32:45
Yeah, and podcasting is almost the perfect medium to tell that sort of curling story because there is such a strong community around curling, but there's just not a whole lot of coverage. It's like podcasting kind of gives it that space where you can tell those very, like specific stories and have it appeal and cater to a very enthusiastic community. But also you did it in a way that it can appeal to people who just want to get into curling or want to understand what it's about, and you make a great entry for it.
Thomas West 33:15
Yeah, people people think curling is boring. They they don't think that curling is particularly exciting. And I mean, they're right. There's not there's not a ton of action in curling. But if you take the time to think about the sport and learn that the different characters because they're very easy to access, right? People in curling, don't, you know, make the most money in the world, right? Being a professional curler doesn't mean that you're, you're one of the richest people in the world or anything. So, you know, there's lots of access to these players, and especially like, one of the most underrated things in curling, I think is that you get to actually hear what each player is saying during the game because they're all miked up, you know, if players were miked up in a hockey game, you know, people would would be absolutely thrilled about that. Right. And it's the same kind of thing, right? Because, you know, they want to hear what the hockey players are saying. But the hockey players who are miked up are not saying anything genuine, you know, they're miked up. The curlers, it's actually real life, what they're saying because they're always miked up. They're never, they never don't have a microphone on them. So, you know, it's kind of like, like reality TV, if you think about it in a way because you know, what they're saying is more genuine and then they're not just saying it, you know, because there's a microphone on right.
Dan Misener 34:44
I think to go back to this idea of what is audio great at. Audio is great at telling stories. Audio is great at reflecting emotion and telegraphing emotion. Right. So audio can tell you stories and it can make you feel things and the best podcasts take advantage of and play to those strengths. Podcasting has never been and I think likely will never be about pure reach. It's not about getting the absolute biggest numbers. It's about engagement. And it's about people voluntarily spending time with you and the stories that you want to tell. Some of the most successful podcasts aren't just podcasts, they're communities of people, and the podcast is just a place to convene.
Samantha McNulty 35:41
When Dan said this in our interview, it made me think of something one of our guests said earlier this season. It was during our alumni episode that one of our guests, Taylor Lindsay Noel, had said that part of the reason why she started her own podcast and loved making podcasts was that it was an opportunity to tell the stories that were important for her to tell. The other guests on that episode, Kyle Moore and Elena Hudgins Lyle, had echoed that sentiment as well. And I can't help but agree. The reason why I love podcasting is that it's one of the best mediums to tell stories that may have otherwise never been told. Because you can be so specific with your audience and your topic, there's a space to tell unique and often overlooked stories that were not given a place in mainstream and broadcast media. Earlier this episode, Dan mentioned how sometimes finding your niche can be a process of finding the story you are uniquely qualified to tell. Our final feature is a great example of this. Up next you'll be listening to an interview from Valentina Passos Gastaldo's podcast, The Immigrant as well as an interview I did with her to talk about the making of her project. As an immigrant herself, Valentina wanted to create a space where she could give other immigrants an opportunity to tell their own stories. This interview, she talks to her sister as a way to illustrate the diversity of immigrant experiences, even from those who come from the same family.
Valentina Gastaldo 37:11
Isn't it weird that we never had this conversation before? Yes, that's true. So maybe let's start from the beginning, which is why and when did you decide to move to Canada.
Isabella Gastaldo 37:22
So I moved to Canada in 2014. And the reason the main reason was just that I was tired of living in Brazil. And I wanted to, to live with with dad. And I also wanted to study and be more focused on school and do well and have more opportunities growing up, I guess, how about you? I know you had different reasons to move into Canada. So do you mind sharing that with us?
Valentina Gastaldo 37:48
Part of the reason I decided to move to Canada was because of you we always lived together since you know I was born and you moving to Canada inspired me to move to Canada as well. I also thought Canada would be a great place for me to conduct my studies, you know, to go to university, study what I wanted to study, which was media production, and I thought Canada would have better resources and better opportunities for me to grow professionally, and also, as a person. Those were the main reasons but, how was it for you to move to Canada? I know you had a hard time leaving Brazil our home country. So I don't know, would you mind sharing that with us? I don't even know to the full extent how that was for you, and the implications of that or the feelings that you felt when you decided to move.
Isabella Gastaldo 38:35
Well, I actually had decided to move a year prior. So 2013 and then mom didn't do very well with it. She thought I was just acting out and I wasn't just happy with with like, maybe not with my friends, but because I wasn't doing well at school, she thought I just wanted to escape from school, which is actually the opposite reason because I was going to Canada to study but she thought I was running away from like my bad grades or something like that. So my move was harder in the beginning than it was when I actually arrived in Canada.
Valentina Gastaldo 39:09
And I think that only differed the most because my arrival in Canada was extremely harder than when I left Brazil. And I think for you is the opposite.
Isabella Gastaldo 39:19
Yes. For me. It was very hard leaving Brazil just because I was leaving mom and she wasn't happy with it. She wasn't okay with my decision.
Valentina Gastaldo 39:25
yeah she wasn't at all.
Isabella Gastaldo 39:26
Yeah, she was forced to be okay. Because otherwise she just would not talk to me anymore, I guess because that's the way that she can sometimes be. So she was forced to be okay with something that she wasn't okay. So that was very hard, and then also leaving all of my friends behind and I wasn't gonna finish high school with them. So that was also very hard. But you know, nowadays or social media you keep in touch with people. I'm still great friends with my friends from back home and I think leaving was the hardest part and the process of preparing to leave as opposed to being an immigrant in Canada,
Valentina Gastaldo 40:02
I really think your move to Canada prepared my move to Canada because I saw how mom got, you know, very upset like I think she felt betrayed. Like if I had to describe the word I would say betrayal, because I think she, she felt you chose that over her. And me seeing that as the only child quote unquote, living in Brazil with her, I had the time to prepare and tell her like, a long time in advance that I wanted to move to Canada. And I never told her that I wanted to, I always told her like, I was thinking and then when I had decided to, then I decided to I started telling her you know, I'm moving to Canada next year. These are the things that I'm thinking about what you think, and I kind of involve her in the process, which I think she felt more comfortable with.
Isabella Gastaldo 40:47
That's interesting, because even though you said that you never told her that you were moving, you always told her that you were thinking of moving. You definitely knew that you were moving because you never like prepared to do to go to university there or
Valentina Gastaldo 41:00
Yeah. I think I was more scared. Yeah. I never prepared to go to university in Brazil. Like, yeah, deep down inside my heart. I knew. Well, not even deep down. Like it wasn't that deep. Actually. I knew that I was afraid of her reaction. Yeah. So I was almost like, you know, I was walking on eggshells. Like, Oh, my God, what's gonna happen here? You know, I love my mom so much. I don't want to worry about her. And that's actually what happened when I moved to Canada. I got very worried about her, you know? Is she okay? Is she doing okay? What is happening? Like, and I had the constant fear of her being safe, which she's completely safe, you know, she's an adult. But yeah, I think you do remember, I used to be very, like panicking a lot of the times.
Isabella Gastaldo 41:46
Yeah, I remember sometimes if she didn't answer her phone for like, a day, you'd completely worry and text all of her friends to see if she was okay. If anything happened. Why wasn't she texting you back?
Valentina Gastaldo 41:59
Yes. And it felt surreal. Because for so long, I thought her being sad was my fault somehow, because I left her you know, but I actually didn't leave her. I didn't leave anyone. I just decided to do something that was best for me. And I think you did the same thing.
Isabella Gastaldo 42:12
Yeah.
Valentina Gastaldo 42:13
So you moved from Brazil to Canada? It was hard leaving Brazil. But what was your first impression? Living in Canada? What did you think about the country, the people you're experiences with your arrival in Canada was it hard? Easy? I know, we had a very, very, very different experiences and opinions regarding our arrivals.
Isabella Gastaldo 42:32
Yeah, so I arrived in Canada a few months before school started. So I had some time to just have a mini vacation, you could say that and just get to know, my house, the neighborhood, some of the people, the friends that our family had. And then I was there for the first day of school in the new year. So I think that's very important, because I know you came in the middle of the semester. I think so. That is already harder.
Valentina Gastaldo 43:02
Oh, I arrived in what in the winter, which was very, a very drastic change from moving, you know, from Brazil during the summer. And I also arrived in the middle of grade 11, you know, half semester already. So that was like a an abrupt change, rather than starting from day one, which is a good thing.
Isabella Gastaldo 43:21
Yeah. And then the people already know each other. You're another people in the class that you're taking and things like that. But anyway, so then I arrived, and then I don't remember it being hard. I remember liking it because it was warm weather. I was just going to all of the places that I wanted to go. I was getting things from my room because my room didn't have anything like it had only a bed. So we went to IKEA and we bought things and then
Valentina Gastaldo 43:45
IKEA is like the best place in Canada. I love IKEA.
Isabella Gastaldo 43:49
It's a Swedish company that sells very, very cheap furniture that you have to build yourself. That's the only thing
Valentina Gastaldo 43:59
but it's so fun.
Isabella Gastaldo 44:00
Yeah, it is fun. It is a fun, like activity. So I was just busy doing all those things and getting my room ready. So I don't remember being hard at all. And then first day of school, I think I lived with my dad and we talked to the principal and then yeah, then I started school.
Valentina Gastaldo 44:17
That's fun, because in my opinion, like seeing you I would say actually the same thing like me seeing you in Canada like going to school for me you were adapting very well, very easily, you know, like didn't have any hard moments in Canada or adapting making friends speaking the language. So yeah, I guess that's a big part. And also, we came to Canada a few times before we moved here because dad lived here since we're 11, 12. So we came to visit, but I remember I never attempted myself to speak the language and you were always the one speaking for us both. So I guess you had an easier time speaking the language than I had at the beginning.
Isabella Gastaldo 44:57
Yeah, but I also think part of the reason I had it Like a smooth transition, I'd say is because I was moving to Canada to study and to do well and get good grades. So I was very focused on my studies, I had my friends from Brazil, it wasn't the end of the world if I didn't make any new friends, obviously, I met some people, I had people that I talked to in class, and did assignments with and if I needed help my teachers, like all helped me, like with the language barrier at saying the beginning, they'd give me extra time, if I wanted, they basically helped me a lot. And because I went to a very, very, very small school, I think that also is another important part of it. Because there were very few people in my school, it was the neighborhood school, because in Canada that at least in Ontario, you go to school in the school that that's the closest to your house.
Valentina Gastaldo 45:47
Yeah.
Isabella Gastaldo 45:47
So the I went to a school that was two blocks away from my house. So I literally walked there, and then walked back. And it was a five minute walk. So that helped me a lot. And unfortunately, when when you moved, you didn't have that because the school had closed.
Valentina Gastaldo 46:02
Yeah, the school that you were attending merged with the school that I attended. So we actually like two schools became one, which was something much bigger, much more like, you know, people, it was very hard for me, but what was your impression of my adaptation to Canada? Because you moved to Canada, I was in Brazil. So I only saw you when I came to visit. But you were living here when I moved. So you got to experience firsthand, my transition. So what was your impression of my transition to Canada?
Isabella Gastaldo 46:30
It was very tough.But it was very hard.
Valentina Gastaldo 46:34
Can you expand on that?
Isabella Gastaldo 46:36
That you missed your friends from back home? For sure, a lot more than I did, that the classes were not difficult, but because you couldn't understand the language, it was difficult, and that you couldn't do as well as you thought you could? Mostly because of this barrier.
Valentina Gastaldo 46:52
Yes. At the beginning was extremely hard. And I think I am very grateful for the teachers that I had that motivated me and pushed me forward to not be afraid of speaking the language or making mistakes, you know?
Isabella Gastaldo 47:04
Yeah. And I think that because it was so hard for you like I mean, I don't think it was my impression. I think it was hard for you. Yeah, it was hard for me. Like I could see that it was hard. And I think that one thing led to another and then it just became really, really hard.
Valentina Gastaldo 47:17
What was like a moment that you remember, that was hard for me.
Isabella Gastaldo 47:21
I don't remember like one moment. And I don't even know if it was the first year that you were in Canada or the second year that you were in Canada, but within the first month. I don't know. I remember you sleeping a lot. Yeah, yeah, that's one thing that I remember that you slept a lot.
Valentina Gastaldo 47:36
Yeah. And actually, eventually I was diagnosed like with depression. And, you know, that was like a very hard thing. For me. I actually like my first ones in Canada, I remember me crying a lot. I used to cry every single day. It was like so hard. And I remember, I was very ill mentally and I remember like talking to you, and then telling you that I didn't want to leave anymore. And then you're telling me like, okay, we're gonna face this together, we're going to figure it out. And you're very supportive of me and having the support for me it was very important, especially because I think any change is hard. And I really felt alone. Like even though I had a family even though I had you and Dad, you know and Lauren, Mariana, like everyone giving me support, I really felt isolated. Because I wanted to express my feelings in English, I wasn't able to, there was so many issues that led to my mental state to be what it was at that time. And it took me such a long time to get over that. And I think if I had, you know, maybe a community of immigrants that I could relate to, maybe if I had other people who are going through the same thing that I was going through, it would be a little bit easier for me than it was. But you're right it was, it was very tough.
Isabella Gastaldo 48:43
Yeah. And I think it all started just because of this like language barrier, like this tiny, tiny, tiny part of it. And then when we can
Valentina Gastaldo 48:51
Which is a tiny thing, but also a huge thing.
Isabella Gastaldo 48:57
Yeah, but it is a tiny thing compared to all of the struggles that one goes through when they move,
Valentina Gastaldo 49:02
But I couldn't speak and for me as an extrovert, it was hard because I wanted to communicate. And I think I express myself the best when I communicate, I couldn't do that. And also like Canada is a place where people were more closed off. Like they're not as open and you know, warm as Brazilians are. So for me, that was a big shock. Like couldn't hug people the way I used to.
Isabella Gastaldo 49:26
I was gonna say that there was a shock between the life that you had in Brazil and and the life that you had in Canada in terms of friendships, like you had a million friends in Brazil, and you talk to everyone who were very like social and then in Canada you almost couldn't be that person.
Valentina Gastaldo 49:42
I literally couldn't and I think that was that was one of the reasons that led me to my mental breakdown was because I didn't know where I was anymore. You know, like that person who that I was in Brazil couldn't be replicated in Canada. And if I couldn't be that, then who was I? Like, who is this person living in Canada? And what can I do to fit in? And for a long time, I had to struggle with myself thinking like, how should I speak? How should I talk? And I still continue to not know, but now I'm way more secure and more comfortable with myself. And I just wish I had more support. And it wasn't because the family didn't give me support, because you you all gave me a lot of support. But it was because I wish I had support from other sources, you know,
Isabella Gastaldo 50:26
Or even if you had known any other immigrants that were also just starting here in Canada, especially in Dundas, the city that we lived.
Valentina Gastaldo 50:34
Yeah, which is such a small city, and I was the only immigrant in my high school. So again, you know, I really felt like isolated.
Isabella Gastaldo 50:43
Yeah, maybe if you had, if you had gone to Toronto to a school there, maybe you would have had a completely different experience, because the immigrant population is very high, over there.
Valentina Gastaldo 50:52
Yeah, absolutely. I think I would, I would have had a different experience in Toronto than I had in Dundas, Ontario.
So, the story behind the immigrant started a few years ago, I think I was in my 3rd, year of university, and I was talking to my aunt about immigration in Canada. So we're both immigrants who come from Brazil, and it was such an interesting conversation, because we're talking about how there isn't such thing as an immigrant experience. When we talk about immigration, we talk about life stories. It isn't about a single narrow minded perspective, it is a very complex thing. So me and her start talking about it. And it started like looking around in the media to see how immigration and immigrants were portrayed. And it was a very single minded perspective. And I started thinking about why there isn't any project or storytelling project in the media that talks about representation, surrounding immigration in Canada. And I was like, Oh, my God, I need to do something about it. So basically, this idea started there, where I wanted to explore what it means to be an immigrant in Canada, but I didn't want to do it in the way some people do it, which is like you go in and you interview people and stuff. And you know, we just get that perspective. I wanted to start a movement, I wanted to give immigrants that agency so they could tell their stories in the way they want other people to hear it. I want immigrants to start telling their stories in the way they want other people to hear it because it's so meaningful when we're able to tell our stories in ways that makes ourselves proud. Like, it's so incredible, when I first was able to tell my story and think with me, like, Oh, my God, Wow, I've been through so much. I'm actually proud of myself proud of being an immigrant. And I think the idea of The Immigrant is surrounding this whole concept of being a proud immigrant of being able to tell your story in meaningful ways, in ways that you want other people to hear it, and, you know, show the complexity of what immigration really means. Because immigration at the end of the day is a very complex thing. And we shouldn't like simplify it, we should actually embrace the complexity of immigration.
So when people think about immigration in Canada, they really think about and I actually do this kind of like a research around it. I asked a lot of Canadians, what they think of immigration and immigrants in Canada, and a lot of them said, Oh, multiculturalism, diversity, and the answers were all the same. But when I asked immigrants, what they think of immigration in Canada and about their experience, the questions were so different, like some people say, you know, oh, it was a change in my life, happiness, fear, diversity, opportunities, losses. So you could see the complexity of those answers, versus the ideal, what people think of immigration in Canada. So when we actually put ourselves in a position where we're proud of telling our stories, we're also able to listen to other stories better.
So how everything is started was I had this idea that I wanted to create this project where I gave agency to immigrants, but I didn't know how it was going to do that. And then podcasts appeared in my life as a format, as a medium in which I could express and have honest and vulnerable conversations with people. But the beginning of this podcast, it started with this goal of letting other people hear what immigration actually is and the complexity of immigration and the stories that surround immigration. And then now where it's going, it's a very different process. The mindset and the purpose of the project is the same, but now it's more focused on The Immigrant itself because what I've realized over the years working with immigrants, there is always this drive to not have an accent, to fully be immersed in the Canadian culture, to not be seen as foreign, as an immigrant. And this, it's almost like not wanting to be seen as yourself, because there's no way we're going to hide our origins. There's no way I'm going to hide my accent, you're going to hear my accent. So I shouldn't be ashamed of it. I shouldn't, I shouldn't fear it. And I understand why people fear because there's so much discrimination against immigrants. And I guess our accents, and the way sometimes we dress, the way sometimes we move our hands and do gestures and so many things, you know. So I started thinking about the project and how we started and how it's going now. And now it's much more about like trying to create a community of immigrants, where we have this movement where we're proud of being immigrants. I am proud of my accent, I have an accent, and I'm not going to deny it. A big life changing moment for me and for some people was when we stopped saying sorry, because if I'm saying sorry, it means that I did something wrong. And when we have accents, and we come from a different culture and a different language, this is going to happen. And this happened so many times where I was constantly apologizing [for] myself at the beginning, but I shouldn't and no immigrant should. So it's much more about trying to create a community of immigrants where we feel proud of our identities and proud of who you are. Rather than just trying to show other people what the Canadian immigration experience is. It's much more about now connecting with immigrants and building a community through storytelling and through owning our identities.
Samantha McNulty 56:59
Valentina's podcast is a really strong example of how someone's lived experience can help inform and inspire work that is compelling to listen to. What Valentina is uniquely qualified to do in this case is to help tell the stories of those who may not necessarily have the exact same experience as her, but have ones that she can resonate and connect with. And because of that she has an advantage when it comes to informing the editorial process involved with creating such a nuanced project like this.
Since producing her podcast, Valentina has taken her project over to the Transmedia Zone, which is a storytelling incubator at X University. She is currently in the process of transforming it into a transmedia project that not only includes a podcast, but also video, photo ops and further and more intimate interviews with other immigrants. The project has taken on a slow content treatment so that it better reflects the mission of Valentina's project to be an incubator for community and connection.
If you want to follow along with the further iterations of The Immigrant, you can follow her Instagram @valgastaldo. That's @ V A L G A S T A L D O, where she'll be starting off the project soon by sharing her own immigration story, and probably any updates on the project.
If you want more information on anything mentioned in this episode, you can likely find some resources and relevant links in our show notes. Before I sign off, I want to give a big thank you to Dan Misener for lending his expertise for this episode, as well as to Valentina, Thomas and Haylee for giving their permission to feature their projects and for taking the time to contribute their voices to this episode. Thanks for joining me, I'm Sam McNulty, your podcast producer and host and this has been another episode of Bounced.
Robot Voice (Closing) 59:04
Thank you for your cooperation.